The Talent Raid, with Jacqui Barnes and Ellis Taylor

Episode QB·06 · 6 Aug 2026 · 36 min

A special edition of Before the Weekend, recorded in Sydney. Peter Schravemade is joined by Jacqui Barnes, Head of People and Growth at Laing+Simmons and author of the Women in Real Estate Insights Report, and Ellis Taylor, Director of Real Time Australia, the recruiter that Blackbird and AirTree name as their number one preferred talent supplier. Two months on from the report's launch, Jacqui returns with the person who is using her findings against the industry. Ellis is candid about it: the hardest stretch for a new agent is months six to eighteen, and that is precisely when he calls. "That's when I target them." Jacqui's response is that the industry has handed him the opportunity. Agencies spend seventy to eighty thousand dollars a year bringing someone up to speed, then make a judgement call at month nine on a two-year journey, without doing much to help the person get there. The conversation covers what the report found about the gap between the support leaders believe they provide and what their people actually experience, why tech sales retains people that real estate loses, how AI-driven talent engineering builds a personalised eighteen-month campaign around your best juniors, and what an agency has to do to make itself hard to raid. Both guests finish with something an agency owner can act on before Monday.

Full transcript

Peter Schravemade (00:05) Welcome to Before the Weekend. This is going to be a special edition release. I'm here in Sydney, and it is Thursday the thirtieth of July. I'm delighted to have back on Before the Weekend, Jacqui Barnes. Jacqui is no stranger to Before the Weekend, appearing on Episode 3 at AREC in May on the Gold Coast. Jacqui, how are you? Welcome.

Jacqui Barnes (00:28) Thank you for having me.

Peter Schravemade Thank you for, well, this is actually your venue, so thank you for having me. And Ellis. I know we're going to introduce Ellis in a minute. But Jacqui, last time I had you on Before the Weekend we were talking about your report. You launched the Women in Real Estate Insights Report, an Australian-first study that you designed and wrote. At the time I said I thought it was a report that should have been on the main stage at AREC. Two months later you're back, and you've brought someone with you. Last time you told me what success for this report looked like. This time I'm asking whether it has sparked conversations outside of where you are. Are you hearing about outcomes as a result of writing the report, or has it gone quiet?

Jacqui Barnes (01:18) I haven't really heard outcomes yet, but I am getting comments. People will say, "I wanted to tell you, I heard your report being spoken about in a boardroom meeting recently." People I don't know, who I meet at an event for the first time, have read it or heard about it. So it's definitely getting out there.

It wasn't the AREC main stage, but you organised for me to speak at LIFT a few weeks ago, and it was really well received in that setting. It's still getting out there, but the feedback is really positive, really constructive. A lot of leaders are taking things away from it and telling me they're implementing things in their business. I'm waiting to find out what those things are and what the outcomes are, because it will take some time for it to have a follow-through effect.

Peter Schravemade (02:17) One of the things I've noticed, especially after the tech and innovation stage you spoke on at the REIQ LIFT conference, is that almost everybody who hears the report identifies with parts of it. They say, "I can see that." The overriding comment I've had is that it put into theory what they already knew but hadn't seen written down anywhere else. They were already aware of it, but it gives a name to the ... Jacqui Barnes It kind of links together thoughts, and validates that what we were thinking was actually true. Because now it's not just my thought or opinion. There's actual evidence to support that thought or opinion.

Peter Schravemade (02:57) Brilliant. Now, you've brought a friend. Actually, he's, well, I had him first.

Ellis Taylor (03:02) Well, I brought your friend.

Peter Schravemade (03:08) With us in the room is Ellis Taylor. Ellis, you run Real Time Australia, which is a recruitment firm, but not technically a real estate recruiter. Ellis is well known for placing people into tech, and a lot of the people you place are allegedly coming out of our industry. So Ellis, welcome to the Before the Weekend podcast.

Ellis Taylor Thank you for having me.

Peter Schravemade (03:34) Now, tell us who you are, what you actually do, how long you've been at it, and how you ended up recruiting out of real estate. But let's start with the first part first.

Ellis Taylor (03:37) Sure. So, running Real Time Australia, we work with the cutting-edge tech companies, and always have. Blackbird and AirTree have named us their number one preferred talent supplier to their portfolio, which means anyone who is backed by the biggest VCs in Australia, as soon as they need to hire, they speak to me.

So that means I'm constantly looking at trends and themes within other industries, and how to attract people to companies like this. And this industry, being real estate, and tech, and how they intersect as well. So we work with a lot of proptechs, and a lot of larger brand names like your Netflix, your Canva, your Afterpay, and so on.

Peter Schravemade (04:35) And obviously at REACH Australia we're happy to have you as a sponsor as well, even though we're not a Blackbird yet.

Ellis Taylor Sure. But we'll get there.

Peter Schravemade One step at a time. That's exactly right. Walk me through a placement, particularly pertaining to this report, so from a real estate perspective.

Ellis Taylor (04:53) Sure. Okay, so a placement with my client looks like this. They come to me and say, I need to find someone to fill a gap. And a lot of the time that's really a new problem which is evolving.

The talent sector in Australia, generally speaking, is extremely narrow in terms of the most in-demand people. Whether it's sales, engineering or marketing, they're all in this top bracket, which means that everyone, whether it's tech, or the many industries adjacent to or outside of tech, is after the same people.

So those companies come to me and say, how can we get smart about finding people? A, competing with the most in-demand brackets, but also getting smart, doing something we've been following for years called talent engineering. Listening to the problem these companies have and thinking outside the box, tapping into the trends we're always following, tapping into the data that is coming our way.

And a really interesting trend within that is the intersection, how real estate professionals are really, really well suited to tech companies. Which I think has been a shock in a lot of places. Even when I put up my hand meeting Jacqui on stage, I said, "I really love your report. This is one of the reasons why we are actively going after your industry." I thought Jacqui was going to throw the mic at me for a second, because I think your response was, "You're welcome."

Jacqui Barnes (06:52) I did say that, actually. That was my response.

Ellis Taylor (06:54) Which was justified. But I think a lot of people in the room were like, hang on, that's a problem, and that's something we should be talking about and listening to.

Peter Schravemade (07:05) Well, the first thing I want to drill down into is this. I am constantly educating real estate agents to be better at technology, and I would never have guessed that you were looking at real estate agents for technology jobs. Without being demeaning to the majority of real estate agents out there, the tech literacy levels are quite low. So is there a particular type of real estate agent you're after? How does this work? I'm having trouble understanding.

Ellis Taylor (07:39) Sure, sure. So what any company, especially a tech company, is after in their sales team is hustle. Technology is getting much easier to understand and work with and adopt. So when we say a technology salesperson, that doesn't mean they're coding or doing anything extremely technical. They're just selling the software product on, and that product is getting much more packageable.

So all we really need behind that sale is a lot of the things real estate professionals have. The confidence. The grit to be able to do a hundred cold calls a day. Presentation. Walking into a room, getting out a deck and showing the C-suite that this solution is best for you. All of those soft skills that are really, really strong in the real estate and property industry, that's what tech is really after. And I'd argue any other industry is after that with their sales teams as well.

Peter Schravemade (08:52) Yeah, that makes complete sense to me, that side of it. I totally get that. I for one minute thought you were hiring them for technical roles.

Ellis Taylor Not yet.

Peter Schravemade (08:59) Jacqui, just back to the report. The finding at the centre of it is the gap between what leaders believe they provide and what their people actually experience. In the report it's a data point. In practice, what does that gap look like inside a real estate agency?

Jacqui Barnes (09:21) It's essentially a feeling, right? A leader will sit there and say, "I'm really approachable. My team knows they can come to me about anything." And they might tell the new team member they've hired that they are. They might say when they're hiring somebody, "Yep, I'll give you all this coaching and training and all that sort of stuff."

But having a once-a-fortnight meeting, handing over a script and dialogue bible, a map with a highlighter and some DLs, and assigning the office friend, that's not great leadership.

The gap is that leaders believe they're providing everything they need to provide. They believe they're approachable. But the report shows that within the first 12 to 24 months, women, and obviously it's women in this instance, but I don't think it's exclusive to women, are deciding whether or not they want to continue their career without ever having a conversation with this supposedly really approachable leader.

So what's happening is that we are not giving our people what it is that they need.

I think there are a couple of parts to it. One is that we're not understanding that real estate, and people, and the world have changed. In the last 30 years it's changed drastically, but even in the last five or six it's changed. In the last year it's changed. People aren't particularly nice to each other right at this moment in time either. So I don't think we're good enough at looking at people at an individual level and figuring out, okay, this is what I need to do to get the best out of you, to help you grow and thrive.

We just have this box, and we say, that's the box, you all have to fit in it. And even if that doesn't get the best out of you, you'll at least do okay with that. But the people who are only going to do okay with the small effort we're putting in for them, Ellis's clients are going to reap the benefit of that.

Peter Schravemade (11:16) Well, in May, one of the things you told me was that you felt sad, because the women had succeeded despite the environment they'd been in, not because of it. You used the term "pure grit". You said that in what drives our performance, leadership support scored 7 per cent and coaching scored 6 per cent. The businesses employing these women get credit for 13 per cent of their success. Has anyone in the industry pushed back on that number?

Jacqui Barnes (11:44) No. No one's pushed back on anything at all.

Peter Schravemade So we know that's a problem. This is probably the other side to it.

Jacqui Barnes (11:54) I hadn't actually thought about it, but I've had not one piece of negative feedback, or even constructive feedback. I've had literally one smart-arse comment on a social media reel that said, "What's gender bias?" Happy to answer it. But yeah, no pushback whatsoever.

Peter Schravemade (12:22) That's answered my next question for you, so we'll move back to Ellis. It's quite clear in the report, there are a few things that diagnose most of the problem. You wrote in a manuscript I saw that the vulnerabilities Jacqui identified are the exact reasons her high performers are ready to jump ship.

Ellis Taylor (12:46) Yeah. And even in that time frame, I know that the hardest time for a sales professional in real estate, especially women, is that first six to eighteen months. That's when I target them. Because I know that if they've gone through that really hard, unsupportive eighteen to twenty-four month zone, they're harder to get. But it's easy pickings in that six to eighteen month period.

Because of all of those things, and many, many more. And it's working so well for my clients, and for tech sales teams in general, because by design they offer a very structured, scalable, supported environment. If their product and teams aren't scalable, then their business isn't. Whereas on the real estate front, it's a lot more individual-performance focused.

So I can say things like mentoring, and teamwork, and working with marketing teams, and weekly one-on-ones. There are just so many things I could tap into and have that conversation with those people to get their interest. And they're biting.

Jacqui Barnes (13:48) And the funny thing is, when you hear all of those things, a lot of leaders will write it off and say, "But I provide that." But the team's not actually experiencing the things that are allegedly provided. And maybe some people do provide it, or a version of it. But the version of it's not landing.

Peter Schravemade (14:28) It's funny, as we talk through this, it echoes my career. I was in real estate. I can't say I was frustrated, and I don't believe I'm a female, which is what the report was directly referencing. But you've referenced that it probably happens to blokes as well.

I can actually say that the support I received, even from a very, very early startup, we had access to every department. We could have an open dialogue. Because we were so nimble, we could change the direction of the company within an hour, sometimes within half a day, and then move forward. And that was the exciting part.

I think sometimes, too, from my perspective, real estate offices are viewed as quite inflexible and immovable in the direction they go. And sometimes you have a lot of frustrations, and the response is, "Well, this is the way we've always done it," or "This is what's handed down." So potentially when you're hiring for a tech company, that's not the case any more, you're actually openly set to challenge the status quo and go, why are we doing things this way?

Jacqui Barnes (15:34) It's one of those "if it's not broke, don't fix it" type of things. But also, if it's not okay, then fix it. It's that type of thing.

And I think of a trap that leaders fall into sometimes, or maybe leader isn't the right word, business owners, people generally go down two pathways. They've worked for a leader who was really poor, and they make a conscious effort not to be like that. They know they didn't respond well to that leadership style, so they put a bit of effort into developing their own. Or you get people who say, "Well, that was a terrible experience. I didn't like working for a leader like that. But you know what? That's how it was for me, so that's how it's going to be for everybody who comes to work under me."

And that doesn't build a good business for anyone.

Peter Schravemade (16:24) Ellis, you mentioned around eighteen months, or twelve to twenty-four in the document I've seen. But let's go eighteen months. Jacqui, is he taking people right at the weakest point? Is that your read on it?

Jacqui Barnes (16:35) I think so. Yeah, that's my read on it. So basically what we're doing is spending seventy to eighty grand a year training up really great people for Ellis.

Peter Schravemade (16:46) And at that stage they'd understand a lot of the operation of a real estate office, a lot of the compliance, the regulation, everything. And they'd have a fair amount of sales experience behind them.

Jacqui Barnes (16:59) Well, they might not. I mean, their transactions may not have come to fruition at that point. But at least they've been around it, they've observed it, they've been immersed in it. Whether they've physically been responsible for it is a different story.

I think it's probably between month nine and eighteen months that it's the biggest risk to the industry, and the most opportune for Ellis. Because that first six months is very much a learning process. The team member is generally willing to give it that six months and see how it plays out. Then they start to get a bit nervous between month six and month nine and think, how is this going to come together? And then if they start getting pressure from their employer, and Ellis is starting to make those phone calls, and they can't see that result coming yet, they might make the easy decision, which is to go.

But what's happening is that we're not understanding that this is a two-year journey for people. We're making decisions about these people at month six, nine, twelve, whatever it might be, without understanding that they're on a pathway and they've got to get through that pathway first. But additionally, we're not doing anything to help them on that pathway.

Peter Schravemade (18:09) Yeah, and I think that time frame has always been a bit of an issue for anyone getting into a real estate office, that nine to eighteen months. But I didn't realise it was as much of an issue, especially for women, as this report has highlighted.

Ellis Taylor (18:25) It's probably a good time for me to give you a bit more perspective on how recruiters who follow a talent engineering model work as well. It's not just me picking up the phone at that person's six-month mark.

The use of AI in recruiting and building a talent engineering system now means I will have multiple touch points between the six and eighteen month mark, with different messages in different media, asking different questions, and providing different personalised ideas and content from my clients to them.

So it's not just a personalised LinkedIn message that goes out and says, "Hey, are you not happy with your career? Why don't you come and explore what a career in tech sales would look like?" It's an extremely personalised, targeted system, which is only going to get more and more sophisticated. So I want to scare you.

Jacqui Barnes (19:37) I can actually picture this campaign popping up. Someone's had a bad day. They've just been read the riot act for not getting their call numbers, or whatever. They get home, they've poured a glass of wine, they're doom-scrolling, and Ellis's Instagram post comes up. "Want to transfer your sales career?" Or something in a subliminal way. And you're thinking, well, you know what, if this packs it in, I'll just call Ellis.

Ellis Taylor (19:58) Yeah, and it's really, really working. And a lot of the candidates are even saying, "Hey look, now's not the right time, but I can introduce you to two or three of my friends in the industry who are not having a great time, or don't love their boss." And that's compounding this exodus from real estate, which I truly do feel is only going to accelerate.

Peter Schravemade (20:27) Interesting juxtaposition, because Jacqui, you're running people and growth for a national franchise. You're recruiting people directly, well, maybe not directly from ... Jacqui Barnes (20:43) It's friends close, enemies closer.

Peter Schravemade (20:46) And I think I've already crossed that gap to the dark side. It's an interesting juxtaposition. So Jacqui, do you think it's fair that Ellis comes in and picks all the fruit? Because it's low-hanging fruit, right? That's what we call it.

Jacqui Barnes (21:08) Fair is really complex, because it's a word, right? Fair implies that it's equal.

Look, do I think it's fair? It's wildly irritating, really, to be completely transparent. But if we are not going to give the people in this industry what it is that they need to succeed, when we now have the information, well, it's kind of on us for not doing better.

Peter Schravemade (21:30) You've also said, and I've had sight of a press release you've got coming up, that real estate loses talent through lazy management. So there is an aspect here where it's not Ellis's fault.

Jacqui Barnes It is ours.

Peter Schravemade Uber wouldn't have come in if the taxi drivers were doing a wonderful job. So I'm not saying Ellis is the Uber of recruitment, he could well be. He's obviously highlighted a distinctive area that is very beneficial for the recruitment process.

So Jacqui, question for you. What does a business have to give someone so that when Ellis calls, they don't pick up? And he just mentioned it's probably not even a call, it's while they're doom-scrolling. But what do you think a defensible position looks like? We spoke about lazy management, so I'm assuming a healthy culture and good management would be the start of it. Is there something else?

Jacqui Barnes (22:28) Yeah, I think there are a few parts to it. One is understanding that success takes time for people. Some people are going to be a runaway success in six to twelve months. For some it's going to take that full two years. But understanding that that's the time window, and when I talk about that time window, that's a sustainable, relationship-driven pipeline. That's not just the stuff you're lucky enough to stumble across.

I think understanding that that is the length of time. Making sure the team member knows that's the length of time. Knowing what good looks like as you're walking down that pathway. Understanding how to get the best out of that person to help them get down that pathway as quickly as possible, because it's financially challenging. You're spending money trying to get this person up to speed and successful, but it's not a lot of money that we're spending. They're trying to live their life as well. It's financially challenging for people being on the award getting started. So, understanding all of those things.

And then how to help that person grow and thrive, and how to get the best out of them. Some people need the carrot and stick. Some people need to be ruled with an iron fist. Other people need support. Know what that is, and how to drive them to that outcome. What motivates you and what motivates me are very different things. And so, understanding what that is.

We'll never be able to stop people trying to take our people, or stop Ellis being able to take people from the industry. There will always be some. But at the end of the day, our people deserve the best. We want the best out of them, they deserve the best out of us in order to do that.

Peter Schravemade (24:04) And Ellis, if an agency was like that, does it make it immeasurably more difficult for you to recruit?

Ellis Taylor (24:11) Absolutely. I get told "I'm not interested" when they have a very clear path to success and a really good relationship with their team, and their boss or their manager or their leader. That's the kryptonite that shuts me down.

The other thing that's really, really hard to defend against, or really, to take someone out of that position and move them across, is the feelings of how they are actually valued in their team. Which is not tied to a figure on a whiteboard, in terms of how many calls I've made today or how many sales I've closed this week. Which again, in that six to eighteen month zone, you've got very little output. Inputs are very, very heavy.

And that's what tech does really well. They set KPIs around inputs, because they have a very, very trackable process towards the sale. If you input these measures, you're going to get that output. I know that obviously exists in real estate, but it feels a lot more undervalued when it's not connected to the output.

Jacqui Barnes (25:36) It's because, you're right, we're valuing calling a hundred people, or dialling a hundred numbers, or knocking on X amount of doors and booking X amount of appraisals. But what we're not valuing is that I might only need to do half of that, and I might have 50 really high-quality conversations that build the opportunity for repeatable interactions with that person. And that's not valued or measured at all. And neither is the effort that goes into doing that.

Peter Schravemade (26:07) Years ago I went to a conference in the US, and the first four speakers were all hype speakers, the kind we're talking about. They got up and got the room super excited, yelling and screaming stuff at each other. They were the kind of people who would encourage salespeople to do a cold plunge at four in the morning, then go and do an hour of meditation and mindfulness, and then a thousand phone calls. You're super pumped, you've got full-on music going, you've got things in front of you that say "believe in yourself, your dreams will come true". You're probably looking at a Mercedes or a jet that you want to own.

The first four speakers were of that ilk, and they were right into the room. The room was so fired up I thought they were going to kill somebody at that point.

And then this diminutive lady called Sara Kalke, K-A-L-K-E, from Canada. I've never seen her since that day. But she got up, and obviously whoever had prepared the conference hadn't done their due diligence on her messaging. She got up and she said, "I don't know what they're talking about. Here are my numbers, and here is the GCI, the commission, that I make."

And she put that on the board and she said, "I've got three kids at home, and I don't care about any of those things. My mission is getting home to my kids and spending more time with them. So I'll go for the easiest path to doing that."

And I remember, she put forward probably the best female-oriented plan I have ever seen for going out there and making sales and being good at it. A lot of it was about her sphere of influence, how she used to pick up people from the children's sports, and so on.

Jacqui Barnes (27:56) It's a strategy, and I literally spoke about that. I've got an agent who does that now. She makes sure she's the class parent every year, because in all the WhatsApp chat groups, guess what comes up every time? Her name goes in there.

Peter Schravemade It is dead-set true.

Jacqui Barnes But I think the thing is, right, those first four speakers, they would have spoken to people in the room. There would be people who would follow that philosophy, and that's great.

Peter Schravemade There's no doubt about that.

Jacqui Barnes (28:19) There will also be people who follow that lady's philosophy too. But it's understanding that the thing that's going to drive the first batch and the thing that's going to drive the second batch are two different things. And knowing how to get the best out of each of them, that is a leader's responsibility, and adjusting their leadership style to both.

Peter Schravemade (28:37) The thing that shocked me was not the first four speakers, because I'd done a lot of conferences in the US and I'd seen that style. In fact, I'd seen those speakers deliver that same pitch multiple times. The thing that shocked me was actually having that last message on the stage, because it's not a popular one.

For whatever reason, and I don't know whether it's the principals who don't like to hear it, or that the majority of people might adhere to one rather than the other, it resonated with me. Because when I was in real estate, all of those principles were what I used to do to go and make sales. And I think I was pretty damn successful at doing it. But I wasn't doing these things that I was told. I certainly wasn't making a thousand calls a day.

So I'm very much aware that different people are inspired by different things. But I think our industry has almost a tendency to go for the sensationalist, or the repeatable that we can go through as a process, and if you follow this, you're more than likely to succeed. But I think one of the things you've touched on in your report is that it probably doesn't actually fit the box for a lot of the women that are out there.

Jacqui Barnes (29:49) Yeah. And look, there are men who would follow that philosophy as well. It's just that stereotypically, mummy's generally at the school gate more than dad. Not in my household, but in a lot. And there are lots of women who want to be the parent who goes to the school gate. Not me. I'm not interested, I don't want to do it. But you know.

Ellis Taylor (30:10) And that's one of the motivations I tap into as well. Asking any candidate, but especially women in real estate who would like to move to tech: what are you actually excited about going to work for?

When I hear "the vibe in the office, the environment, the energy" and stuff like that, it's going to be very hard for me to take them across. But I target the quiet achievers, or those who are a little bit over the twenty-four-seven mentality, high energy, let's-jump-on-the-phone stuff.

I have a really clear message. It's like: you can come and wear what you want at this office. You can work from home two days a week. We're not going to stand up on desks and scream all of our goals and motivations and what cars and jets we want. We are just coming to work to work as a team, and it's going to be super enjoyable.

As soon as I hear someone resonate with that, they're out.

Peter Schravemade (31:18) I think we're almost out of time for today. But to both of you, if I imagine there are agency owners listening, what should they do before Monday to improve the way they approach staff in general, but particularly onboarding new staff?

Ellis Taylor (31:37) I might steal what your strongest message today has been, which I think really resonates: listen to your people.

Any sales team in the world can show you that it's not about having multiples of the same archetype, the high energy, or the super analytical, or the super attention-to-detail salesperson. It's having a mix of those, to expand your portfolio, to talk to different clients who might resonate with person A and not person B. And then when you're listening to them, you can also understand their motivations, and hopefully tailor a bit more of a path to their success.

If you do that, it's going to make my job harder. But that's what I'm giving up today.

Jacqui Barnes (32:30) Free advice.

What I would be doing is going to my current team, every single person, whether they're a salesperson or not, whether they're male or female, every single team member, and booking a one-on-one with them. Have stay meetings, first of all, rather than exit interviews.

I'd be asking them: when you first started here, what helped you start well? What should I have done to help you get going better, faster? What would have made it easier?

And then, once you have the answers to those questions, use the information. It's all well and good to ask questions, but if you don't do anything with the answers, then it's pointless. But I would start by speaking to your team.

Peter Schravemade (33:08) Excellent advice there. Ellis, I really appreciate you coming on and spilling the beans, so to speak.

Ellis Taylor Stabbing myself in the foot there.

Peter Schravemade Well, the one thing I'd say to you is that every time I get up in front of an audience, I remind myself that there are so many people who aren't listening to this.

Jacqui Barnes (33:27) Should we feel special now?

Peter Schravemade (33:29) And the reality is the ones who are listening are probably the ones who run pretty good offices. They will inevitably be motivating themselves to get better at what they do. It's always the way. Unfortunately, there is a side of real estate that will just continue on, and I would imagine that will be a happy hunting ground. But we can always hope that we improve the standards.

Jacqui, thank you so much, firstly for the report, but also for a second time coming on and chatting about it. If there's anything we can do at Before the Weekend to get it out any further, I'll have the links on all of the podcasts. And people can reach out to you and have a chat.

Ellis, as far as you're concerned, the other area we haven't dealt with today is tech recruitment for real estate, which is becoming quite big. Are you in that area at the moment?

Ellis Taylor (34:27) Yeah, absolutely. And more and more, real estate companies are becoming more tech focused. So we're doing a lot of work there.

Peter Schravemade (34:33) So I'll also put the contact details for Real Time Australia down, and then if anyone's got any questions for you, they can find them.

But Ellis and Jacqui, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I really appreciate your time. I'm sure we'll see you before long.

Ellis Taylor Thank you.

Jacqui Barnes Thanks, Pete.